A totaly differnt (Inverse) method of filing

A forum about crosscut saw filing
User avatar
Jim_Thode
PostsCOLON 744
JoinedCOLON June 28th, 2012, 9:34 am
LocationCOLON Onalaska, Washington State, USA
CONTACTCOLON

Re: A totaly differnt (Inverse) method of filing

Post by Jim_Thode » March 2nd, 2018, 10:27 am

chancwj wroteCOLONJim,
What's your opinion of the three-faceted cutters with flat knife edges? Do they have more or less drag than traditionally sharpened two facet cutters? Do they wear slower in use?
Actually the jury is still out on that. I only sharpened one set of cutters that way and I can not notice the difference. Off hand I'd bet there is a little more drag but resharpening may be easier with the knife edges because the overall length of the tooth should last a lot longer. That would greatly reduce the requirement to joint.

Jim

Brother Ben
PostsCOLON 15
JoinedCOLON February 27th, 2019, 10:36 am

Re: A totaly differnt (Inverse) method of filing

Post by Brother Ben » March 27th, 2019, 5:47 pm

Hi Jim,my name is brother ben.i was reading your post here. What i wanted to ask is reguarding your saw binding after so much depth into the log.you made a reference to your filing but i couldnt understand where the error was made. I experience that often. I confess i dont level the saw plate too well. I have been checking my set .012 on a flat ground saw. Ive thought my filing on the cutters may be suspect. If you dont mind explaining this detail i would appreceate it. Also i saw your video cutting fire wood. I was sure encouraged seeing you cut staight into the log without pealing the bark. Thank you friend,brother Ben

User avatar
Jim_Thode
PostsCOLON 744
JoinedCOLON June 28th, 2012, 9:34 am
LocationCOLON Onalaska, Washington State, USA
CONTACTCOLON

Re: A totaly differnt (Inverse) method of filing

Post by Jim_Thode » March 28th, 2019, 8:01 am

Brother Ben wroteCOLON
March 27th, 2019, 5:47 pm
Hi Jim,my name is brother ben.i was reading your post here. What i wanted to ask is reguarding your saw binding after so much depth into the log.you made a reference to your filing but i couldnt understand where the error was made. I experience that often. I confess i dont level the saw plate too well. I have been checking my set .012 on a flat ground saw. Ive thought my filing on the cutters may be suspect. If you dont mind explaining this detail i would appreceate it. Also i saw your video cutting fire wood. I was sure encouraged seeing you cut staight into the log without pealing the bark. Thank you friend,brother Ben
Saw binding could be caused by a few things but for a flat (non-tapered) saw I'd increase the set to about 0.020". For a well tapered saw a set of 0.012" or less is just fine but a flat saw needs more set. Dull cutters may also tend to bind because the kerf will tend to get smaller as the saw cut down into the log.
Normally I don't peal the bark unless I suspect it is dirty.

Jim

Brother Ben
PostsCOLON 15
JoinedCOLON February 27th, 2019, 10:36 am

Re: A totaly differnt (Inverse) method of filing

Post by Brother Ben » March 28th, 2019, 4:42 pm

Thank you Jim. I will increase my set to .02. I confess ive never set a saw to that measurement. These flat ground saws are old curtis one man saws (36 in. and 42 in. )Champion tooth pattern.They have been good saws. We cut mostly hard wood out here in the mid west. Im greatful for your help. Your friend brother Ben

User avatar
Jim_Thode
PostsCOLON 744
JoinedCOLON June 28th, 2012, 9:34 am
LocationCOLON Onalaska, Washington State, USA
CONTACTCOLON

Re: A totaly differnt (Inverse) method of filing

Post by Jim_Thode » May 9th, 2019, 9:54 am

How does anyone think this saw will cut?

Image

Trailsawyer
PostsCOLON 90
JoinedCOLON July 1st, 2012, 7:27 am
LocationCOLON SW Washington State

Re: A totaly differnt (Inverse) method of filing

Post by Trailsawyer » May 9th, 2019, 7:54 pm

I would think that it would cut well..... and that it would be quite easy to re-sharpen the "points" without changing the set or height of the tooth?
Let us know!
Gary

whirlibird
PostsCOLON 23
JoinedCOLON October 6th, 2016, 8:10 pm
LocationCOLON N Idaho

Re: A totaly differnt (Inverse) method of filing

Post by whirlibird » September 18th, 2019, 2:15 pm

This is an interesting idea. Now that I have 4 additions to our saw "family", this is something I would be interested in hearing the results of cutting. It could significantly save some sharpening time not working for the perfect almond shape on the cutters.

Any results yet?
Brian

soli
PostsCOLON 149
JoinedCOLON January 24th, 2013, 9:25 pm

Re: A totaly differnt (Inverse) method of filing

Post by soli » October 13th, 2019, 9:12 pm

Jim_Thode wroteCOLON
May 9th, 2019, 9:54 am
How does anyone think this saw will cut?

Image
a variant of the soli technique !

User avatar
Jim_Thode
PostsCOLON 744
JoinedCOLON June 28th, 2012, 9:34 am
LocationCOLON Onalaska, Washington State, USA
CONTACTCOLON

Re: A totaly differnt (Inverse) method of filing

Post by Jim_Thode » January 24th, 2020, 1:01 pm

An update on the flat toothed saw test:

Image

The Story of Two Saws
Given two nearly identical saws, one with normal pointed cutters and one
with flat top cutters, what one will cut better and what one will need less
maintenance?
The idea of the flat tooth was that most of the wear would be on the leading
and trailing edge of the cutter and the knife edge would not need sharpened
for a long time. With just the leading and trailing edge of the cutters
needing only touched up, the height of the cutters would remain the same.
There would be no need to mess with the rakers or joint the saw on a regular
basis.
So how did it work? I cut maybe 4 cords of wood with the two saws,
changing back and forth on most every cut. At first the flat toothed saw out
preformed the normal pointed toothed saw. It cut about 10% faster with
much less resistance. It ran very smooth, almost the point of wondering if
the saw was actually cutting.
About half way through the experiment the two saws equaled out in cutting
speed with the flat toothed saw still running smooth. Over time and toward
the end of the test the flat toothed saw required more and more down
pressure to get it to cut well. The pointed tooth saw was still cutting well.
When I stopped the experiment the flat tooth saw was not cutting nearly as
fast as the as the pointed tooth saw and was requiring too much down
pressure to be serviceable.
Upon a close inspection of the flat toothed saw it is evident that the knife
edged points of the teeth were showing wear. So the original assumption
that there would only be wear on the leading and trailing edges was wrong.
And if you think about how a saw really moves through the wood that makes
some sense. When sawing the saw moves both inline with the axis of the
saw and down into the wood perpendicular to the axis at the same time. The
vertical part of the movement caused the knife edge to wear and the dulling
of the knife edge. This dulling required much more down pressure to
advance on the cut.
After this experiment I would not recommend filing cutters with a flat top.

Image
This show the wear on the knife edge

Image


Jim

dayle1960
PostsCOLON 126
JoinedCOLON July 31st, 2014, 11:33 am
LocationCOLON Bella Vista Arkansas

Re: A totaly differnt (Inverse) method of filing

Post by dayle1960 » January 28th, 2020, 3:10 am

Thanks for the update on the experiment. I'm surprised by the outcome. I figured the leading edge would take the brunt of the dulling, not the flat portion. Oh well, that's why we humans take the risk of finding out what works and what doesn't.

Now, how about doing a comparison betwixt a rusted, pitted saw and a brand new mirror finished saw. :mrgreen:

BUTTON_POST_REPLY