Monster M tooth.

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Re: Monster M tooth.

Postby Starling_Saw » April 24th, 2016, 5:36 pm

Gavin Longrain wrote:
Starling_Saw wrote: When you want to saw with less effort you just pick up on the saw, much like a carpenters handsaw, with less teeth in the cut.

What do you mean by pick up on the saw? Do you mean lift the saw a little so it does not keep in full contact with bottom of kerf?

Yes, you just pick up so less teeth are in contact.
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Re: Monster M tooth.

Postby Starling_Saw » April 24th, 2016, 5:42 pm

PATCsawyer wrote:John - do you overset the teeth a little and then back hone the exact set? What do you use to add more set? Grip setter, wrest, hammer?

I would overset the teeth a couple thousand,with a hammer, then use a side dresser I built, that holds a smooth file. You can adjust the side dresser to the desired set.
John
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Re: Monster M tooth.

Postby Starling_Saw » April 24th, 2016, 6:39 pm

The side dresser I use on most all my saws after jointing the tips, to remove any burrs made from the long jointer, to get the most accurate measurement of the tip of the cutter tooth, before and after hammer setting them. I don't use it to back hone or file the tooth for a finished set. I feel the flat area tends to wear faster than the unjointed tooth, with the exception of a racing saw, where they are only used a few cuts, then refiled to keep the sharpest possible teeth.
How the dresser works is the area point "A", is siding on the body of the saw just below the teeth. The Points "B and C" are the adjustment screws which controls the amount to be removed from the teeth. The file is held in place by the set screws "D". The file is also placed in the dresser at about a 2 degree angle, so the tips of the teeth will have about 2 1/2 degree Radial angle. Radial angle is determined from a vertical line, (back of saw to Tip) which is only the area of the tooth that is set.
The last photo is of a M-tooth topping saw. The saw on bottom of pile is a new unfiled saw as I get them from the saw shop after getting them water-jetted or Laser cut. The M-tooth saw on top, is the same saw after it has been filed many times and shows the progression of the teeth getting smaller as it is filed. This style of tooth can only be made with a laser or water jet. The vintage M-tooth could be cut, using an abrasive cutting wheel because the face of the tooth is vertical.
John
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Re: Monster M tooth.

Postby PATCsawyer » April 25th, 2016, 5:22 am

Wow, that looks like a "gloves-on" tool and not one you'd find on Ebay. Thanks for the tutorial. Do you lower the saw down into your vise so the feet (B&C) of the tool runs along the top of the vise and keeps the top of the tool above the tooth tips?

I slightly back hone my teeth to remove any filing burrs and true up to clean metal before setting. The extra fine diamond hone I use gives more of a polish and just at the tip. I have to do each tooth singly though, as my fingers act as the tool holder.
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Re: Monster M tooth.

Postby Starling_Saw » April 25th, 2016, 9:17 am

Most all traditional peg saws have a 32 ft radius, which is what my vice was cut to. I do run the dresser along the back top edge of my vice when I hone. It keeps the dresser consistent to the teeth.
When doing the one man saws they have an increasing Arc as you get to the toe of the saw. It would be beneficial to have a bench that could adjust to compensate for that.
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Re: Monster M tooth.

Postby Jim_Thode » April 27th, 2016, 8:52 am

John,
That is a niffy side dresser tool. If I understand the 2° angle of the file, it would make the tip narrower the thickness of the saw, then when the tooth is set that 2 degree angle would be essentially reversed so the tip is the widest part of the blade.

Do you check your file to be sure it is flat and not twisted? I found that most "flat" files do have a twist in them:
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1154&p=5811#p5811

Cam you elaborate on, " I feel the flat area tends to wear faster than the unjointed tooth, with the exception of a racing saw, where they are only used a few cuts, then refiled to keep the sharpest possible teeth."

Jim
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Re: Monster M tooth.

Postby Starling_Saw » April 27th, 2016, 6:48 pm

When side dressing a tooth, I find when the tip is less than the 2 degree radial angle it will show more wear, or dullness sooner. I haven't done any real testing, but when I used to dress the tooth flat to make all the teeth the same set. The teeth or tooth that had been filed or honed with a stone seemed to be a lot more dull when coming back from a summer of trail work. So I try to make the teeth even, without side-dressing them anymore. I'll try to get some photo examples someday as I collect them from trail saws as they come in. Maybe start a new topic with that side of the cutter tooth and overall dullness of a saw as the focus point. I think we all tend to focus on the bevel angle and the quality of the file stroke so much, we all forget about the side kerf side or backside. Where that is probably more important than the side we work on. That side of the cutter tooth is doing most all the work.
John
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Re: Monster M tooth.

Postby Jim_Thode » April 28th, 2016, 7:44 pm

Starling_Saw wrote:When side dressing a tooth, I find when the tip is less than the 2 degree radial angle it will show more wear, or dullness sooner. I haven't done any real testing, but when I used to dress the tooth flat to make all the teeth the same set. The teeth or tooth that had been filed or honed with a stone seemed to be a lot more dull when coming back from a summer of trail work. So I try to make the teeth even, without side-dressing them anymore. I'll try to get some photo examples someday as I collect them from trail saws as they come in. Maybe start a new topic with that side of the cutter tooth and overall dullness of a saw as the focus point. I think we all tend to focus on the bevel angle and the quality of the file stroke so much, we all forget about the side kerf side or backside. Where that is probably more important than the side we work on. That side of the cutter tooth is doing most all the work.
John


Thanks John. I'm going to start a new thread on filing the back side of the cutters.
Jim
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Re: Monster M tooth.

Postby Gavin Longrain » May 29th, 2018, 4:06 am

Jim Thode does side dressing by stroking the file parallel with the back side of the tooth and is understandably concerned about twist in the file

Image

Any twist in the file appears as an asymmetric shine on the back of the cutter...
Image


Starling saw strokes the file at right angles to the back side of the tooth with his cunning side-dresser.

Image

Question: Does Starling Saw's right-angle filing mean a twisted file does matters less?
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Re: Monster M tooth.

Postby Jim_Thode » May 29th, 2018, 8:50 am

Gavin Longrain wrote:....Question: Does Starling Saw's right-angle filing mean a twisted file does matters less?


I'd say it is equally important to have a flat file. In either case if the filed surface is not parallel to the body of the saw, it will cause problems. If a filer checks to see if the file is flat it should not be a problem. Even though most files seem to have some twist, if you look flat files can be found.

I recently noted that with some older vintage combination tools a file could be clamped in for side dressing. It seems that more modern combination tools lost that feature.

This is from a 1938 Simonds catalog:

Simonds 1938.jpg


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