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When is plate width too small?

PostPosted: November 6th, 2016, 9:21 am
by whirlibird
I've been doing a bit of searching and not yet found a discussion for when a saw has been loved and sharpened so many times that it is plain time to retire the saw. Is there some minimum plate width or width from back of gullet compared to gullet depth to use as a guide?

The question came while trying to figure out how to set the teeth on a very well loved Simonds 5 foot bucking saw with lance-tooth pattern. Most spiders were too long to fit including the smaller one purchased from trolleypup. That smaller spider only fit by leaving the ends of the saw above of the vise and carefully position the spider gauge for the feet to not be in a gullet. The only other posts I saw was using a dial indicator for tooth set to avoid the issue of feet placement. That is on my explore list.

Re: When is plate width too small?

PostPosted: November 6th, 2016, 9:47 am
by Jim_Thode
I've never see anything on a minimum depth of saw body. If the saw cuts and is stiff enough for the intended use you should be good to go.

As far as setting with a spider I think you are on the correct track. Some teeth are too long to use a spider and some saws are too small to use a spider. The dial indicator solves that problem and one tool will replace a whole hand full of spiders.

Teeth too long:
147195280.7p7JKlxE.IMG_7125a.jpg


Saw too small:
147195281.umnHwffq.IMG_7126a.jpg


The solution:
147195282.EpdyRYAf.IMG_7127a.jpg


How to make one at:
http://www.pbase.com/jimthode/dialsetgauge
Jim

Re: When is plate width too small?

PostPosted: November 6th, 2016, 10:01 am
by whirlibird
Jim,
The link you posted is the one I learned about the dial indicator idea following some of the links and threads here. Thank you for posting it. I have that tool on my wish list to make. I will have to experiment with the length of the angle/tee base to see if I can end up stable yet short enough to keep the saw clamped in the vise. It sure would make sharpening saws with different tooth set much easier with one tool.

I don't recall reading how well the angle worked compared to the tee base. It sees like it would be a little out of balance and need more thought to keep it flat against the saw.

Re: When is plate width too small?

PostPosted: November 6th, 2016, 1:20 pm
by PATCsawyer
As long as your saw blade (plate) is flat, you can angle the spider 30 or 40 degrees to either side of the tooth you're measuring and still get an accurate reading. Just so long as the lower spider feet don't ride up on a wrested tooth or raker. The amount of taper in a ground blade shouldn't make much difference if you sweep the spider an inch or two. If the whole saw is a ribbon, angle the spider the same way for each tooth.

Re: When is plate width too small?

PostPosted: November 7th, 2016, 6:57 am
by Jim_Thode
whirlibird wrote:Jim,
The link you posted is the one I learned about the dial indicator idea following some of the links and threads here. Thank you for posting it. I have that tool on my wish list to make. I will have to experiment with the length of the angle/tee base to see if I can end up stable yet short enough to keep the saw clamped in the vise. It sure would make sharpening saws with different tooth set much easier with one tool.

I don't recall reading how well the angle worked compared to the tee base. It sees like it would be a little out of balance and need more thought to keep it flat against the saw.



The angle or tee base work equally well. Depending on how you hold the saw when measuring the set I could see how a shorter base may be an advantage however then longer, the more accurate reading you will get. With a short base and even with a spider just a little dip or bump will throw the set measurement off quite a bit.

Jim

Re: When is plate width too small?

PostPosted: November 7th, 2016, 7:43 am
by soli
In 5 minutes you can make a custom sized spider for any tooth length:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=555&hilit=+spider#p2474

Re: When is plate width too small?

PostPosted: November 7th, 2016, 2:21 pm
by dayle1960
I will say this about a too short length between the gullets and the back of the saw. When using a hand saw for carpentry work, I've seen some saws filed to where the leading tip is only an inch wide. This makes the saw extremely whippy and when you are pulling the saw back into the kerf. It make the pull harder because the saw is hitting the kerf multiple times while being retracted. I'd think this is the same for a one man crosscut saw. Even though the crosscut saw would never get filed down to one inch, even if it were to be filed down to say three inches, it would produce the same type of whipping while pulling it through the kerf.

Just my two cents.

Terry

Re: When is plate width too small?

PostPosted: November 23rd, 2016, 7:12 pm
by whirlibird
Well, I sure appreciate the feedback here. I read through the thread posted by Soli and found it very interesting. Learned a few more things. I am planning on following Jim's dial indicator gauge idea. I happen to have some angle so will use a piece for this project.

I did learn more on choosing the dial gauge. I had missed the 1/10" range so already purchased one with a much larger range. :? I think if I plan the base right it will work still. I did glean more ideas for making spiders that I might try just to try them and see how they turn out and gain a little experience.

Well, I hope about 3 inch plate width at the ends of the 5 foot bucking saw is strong enough. More testing will prove either way, when the rain stops long enough to do so.

Thanks again,
Brian