Simonds saw?

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Simonds saw?

Postby ChiricahuaZac » January 30th, 2013, 7:06 am

A guy from northern NM came down to have me sharpen a saw he picked up from his girlfriends family. Story goes, he mentioned that he was looking for a nice saw to use and his friends family said, "well we have one hanging on our wall, we used it to cut rocks."

Apparently they used it to cut gypsum, pumice or soapstone from what he could figure out. Long story short, this saw was not too rusty when it came in, but the teeth were rounded off and smooth as could be in the middle. The ends did not get beat up too much. I started to join it and realized this saw was hard as a rock, well harder than a rock! It ruined a few files before I was done. I’ve never come across a saw so hard. It actually wore in to the body of one of my files. I ended up joining it with some regret that I took on this project, but decided that rejoining it to its original arch was going to be more work than I wanted to put into it. So I split the difference and took off about a ¼ inch on the ends and just barely took off anything in the mid section. When it came to me the mid section of the saw was flat, no arch left, so I feel like it’s a least a working arch now, just not original. I’ve had hard steel that was hard to set or needs heat, but never had one so hard that joining did damage to a file. One of my files in the picture below (the file in the middle) I have used many times on several saws for joining. This saw alone put three files down! I thought about heating the entire thing, but worried that would be too much at once. Has anyone ever encountered this or done this?

So now the point of this post. I assumed it was a Simonds saw even before I touched a file to it. The temper reinforced it. Then I found a very slight touch of red paint on one side of the saw when I started filing the teeth. I know Sumnergeo has a Simonds no. 13 which was made for cutting frozen timber up north, and I have heard of similar saws for cutting ice. Does anyone know what model this could be, and perhaps have a bit of literature on it?
As you can see from the photos, it’s a perf. Lance and it measures about 5 or 5.5’ long. It was crescent ground, but due to its history there was no marking left on it. I felt lucky to find the trace of red paint in the tooth gullet on the end.

sorry i dont take more photos, or even got a good final one :cry:

rock saw.JPG


rock saw2.JPG


files.JPG
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Re: Simonds saw?

Postby Jim_Thode » January 30th, 2013, 9:45 am

ChiricahuaZac,

It probably depends on the type of saws you normally sharpen but for me it is common for my jointing file to look like yours with the stripped off teeth. I normally work on two man Simonds saws and in general they seem to be harder then one man saws. It looks like you are able to file the cutters without much problem but you may have to be careful when you start bending some set or swaging rakers.

Here is a photo of cutting rock:
band_stone1.jpg

From:
http://www.wilderness.net/NWPS/enlargeA ... ls?id=1698

It does not appear that your saw is out of the ordinary but I suppose that for rock sawing a person could harden a the teeth just for that purpose. Of course then it could not be sharpened with a file. Jim Taylor's competition saws are that way. Once the teeth are shaped he hardens the teeth so hard that a file will not touch them and only can sharpen with a stone or diamond hone.

Jim
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Re: Simonds saw?

Postby Crosscut Sawyer » January 30th, 2013, 11:15 am

Looks like maybe the 541, on page 4 of the 1953 catalog in the database. I took note of the sway back and the shorter gullets on the end teeth.

Jim, do you know what method Jim Taylor uses to harden the teeth? Heat and quench? Oil? Water? Has anyone tried this on a vintage saw? I have some beater practice saws that might make for a good experiment.
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Re: Simonds saw?

Postby Jim_Thode » January 30th, 2013, 12:44 pm

Jim Taylor uses air to quench the bandsaw steel he uses. To harden, it is heated to cheery red then air quenched. After it is hard he then tempers it a little, to about straw or brown. The temper make it so it is not so brittle but still too hard to sharpen with a file.

It would probably work on a vintage saw but depending on how it is set and how much swaging is required, it may may be a pain in the neck. The back side of Taylor's cutters are very nearly parallel to the saw blade. See the smooth more shiny faces on the cutters in the photo. This would allow the cutters to be sharpened many times without messing with the set. Same for the rakers, they can be sharpened many times with out any swaging. If the set has to be changed or the rakers swaged, then the saw has to be annealed, reshaped, hardened and tempered again. This can be done and it can be done as many times as needed but if the saw is not set up for it as the competition saw is, it would be a lot of work every time it needed the set adjusted or the rakers swaged.

Taylor P&R 4th 1a.jpg


The consistency of the steel in vintage saws from different manufactures and different models is likely not as good as modern steel. It would probably take some experimenting with what kind of hardening method works for each saw.

Jim
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Re: Simonds saw?

Postby ChiricahuaZac » January 30th, 2013, 1:31 pm

I guess i should say, yes, normaly i do get some groves in my files from joining any saw. Not to the point where it makes a file useless after a few passes. This is hard to see in the photo, but the saw actually cut into the file, way out of the norm for what have seen in simonds. You may be right about it being tempered after the fact, and that crossed my mind when i was sharpening it. It almost seemed like it was not as hard after I got the tips taken off, but maybe I just got numb to it all.

You may be right about the 541, I have a few of those and after looking at them all I think that would be the best bet. They did come tempered kind of hard too, but from what i have experianced with the ones i have not as hard as this one was.
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Re: Simonds saw?

Postby trolleypup » January 30th, 2013, 3:59 pm

Mmyup. Simonds saws are notorious for being very hard and messing up files. I have a few that Dolly heated rakers and/or cutters a bit so she could work with them, noting that they are still *harder* thanmany other saws afterwards! Mid years production 325s are especially bad...the shiny NOS ones you see on eBay are not quite as hard...and remarkably, relatively rust resistant!!!
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Re: Simonds saw?

Postby Crosscut Sawyer » January 30th, 2013, 4:50 pm

I killed a jointing file on my Simonds 133 in no time, and when I finally got to swaging the rakers, I was afraid I was going to break the legs off my vise. I remember jokingly asking someone to borrow a single jack for it. However, I wonder if the saw Zac is working with has developed such a strong temper from the time it spent working in rock. Might the action of sawing rock heat the saw and cause it to harden over time?
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Re: Simonds saw?

Postby Starling_Saw » January 30th, 2013, 7:11 pm

Crosscut Sawyer wrote:I killed a jointing file on my Simonds 133 in no time, and when I finally got to swaging the rakers, I was afraid I was going to break the legs off my vise. I remember jokingly asking someone to borrow a single jack for it. However, I wonder if the saw Zac is working with has developed such a strong temper from the time it spent working in rock. Might the action of sawing rock heat the saw and cause it to harden over time?

I would think that the saw teeth have been what we would call case hardened. Just sawdust impacting the bottom of a gullet on a circle saw will harden it untill a file will not scratch it. It can only be gummed out with a grinding wheel. Left as is, it would crack down into the saw plate. John
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Re: Simonds saw?

Postby ChiricahuaZac » February 4th, 2013, 12:50 pm

Interesting, I guess I never thought about what it means to be case hardened. I had to look it up, and that makes sense and seems like what I experienced. It basically means that just the outer "layer" of metal has been hardend, leaving the interneal metal relatively softer. this is on track with what I noticed, once I filed off some metal it did seem to get easier. Well easier on my files anyhow.

Ive noticed this in hand tools over the years when someone files an ax head with a power grinder, and over heats the metal. then the next time a guy tries to file it with a hand file, its like there is a "glass like" cover over the metal. files just seem to slide right over them, once you get down through that, its easier. Never thought it could happen from a saw just cutting. but then... I would not have thought to use a cross-cut for cutting rock.

thanks for helping me solve this mystery!
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Re: Simonds saw?

Postby bsk_crosscutter » August 17th, 2016, 1:12 pm

Jim_Thode wrote:Jim Taylor uses air to quench the bandsaw steel he uses. To harden, it is heated to cheery red then air quenched. After it is hard he then tempers it a little, to about straw or brown. The temper make it so it is not so brittle but still too hard to sharpen with a file.

It would probably work on a vintage saw but depending on how it is set and how much swaging is required, it may may be a pain in the neck. The back side of Taylor's cutters are very nearly parallel to the saw blade. See the smooth more shiny faces on the cutters in the photo. This would allow the cutters to be sharpened many times without messing with the set. Same for the rakers, they can be sharpened many times with out any swaging. If the set has to be changed or the rakers swaged, then the saw has to be annealed, reshaped, hardened and tempered again. This can be done and it can be done as many times as needed but if the saw is not set up for it as the competition saw is, it would be a lot of work every time it needed the set adjusted or the rakers swaged.

Taylor P&R 4th 1a.jpg


The consistency of the steel in vintage saws from different manufactures and different models is likely not as good as modern steel. It would probably take some experimenting with what kind of hardening method works for each saw.

Jim




Hi,

Does anybody knows how is it done that air quenching??
Is it heated to cheery red and then left cooling at room temperature, or it is cooled with any forced air flow??

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